These boots were made for walking
Interview with Elizabeth Carter As imagined by Dr Lucy Morley Williams
As I shape shift into Elizabeth for this interview my posture alters, I am more upright, contained (the impact being in an 18th century corset?). My persona alters, my language veers towards formal. My physical presence feels more pronounced, a certain regality, inquisitive, bold & imperious. Yet this is tempered by a keen sense of irony rustling beneath the surface. My internal voice morphs to an English upper-class clip. Indomitable. Yes, here is Elizabeth Carter saying no to round holes.
It is an honour to introduce you to Elizabeth Carter
LMW Hello Elizabeth it ..
EC Oh no my dear call me Eliza. At my age any hint of youthfulness and folly is most welcome
LMW The older you are the greater the experience of follies you will have to draw upon!
Laughter
EC Precisely. Born in 1717 Deal Kent – so experience on an epic scale
LMW Even though I strongly suspect you will prefer me not to say this – but in the interests of folly – thank you so much for agreeing to talk to me.
I want our reader to get a to get a sense of your originality and fearlessness. Carving a life through sheer application and courage where walking, yes walking, is central to your being and independence. I see you as a complex paradox of radical defiance, confounding the norms and expectations of 18th century life. Yet as a Parson’s daughter also conservative, with a keen sense of decorum and propriety. Although equated with a precursor of feminism, you often found Mary Wollstonecraft and the “bluestockings” too racy!
You are fluent in nine languages, taking up Arabic in later life, a renowned classical scholar, translator, linguist & poet. A member of the Blue Stocking circle of prominent women intellectuals who met regularly in London with speakers to discuss ideas in depth. You were close ally and equal to Samual Johnson (celebrated man of letter and author of the first comprehensive Dictionary of the English Language). Earning and being bequeathed money and resolutely unmarried, you did not lose your property and financial rights.
EC I blush. Yet I do not see myself as a rebellious person, decorum and good manners are deeply ingrained principles. I am a clergyman’s daughter.
LMW I shall come back to this. A left field question. Did you read the Wikki page about you?
EC Yes, I did after you alerted my attention to the publication. Most curious, I am not sure if I misrepresented the author’s tone. What did you surmise?
LMW I detected a prickliness and condescension that bled through the piece. It was as if the written word sneered.
EC My good opinion of myself remained unaltered (Eliza strikes a pose of a haughty imperiousness)
laughter
LMW As you have a portrait in the National Gallery and feature as a muse in an assembly piece picture, I believe you have the last laugh.
Eliza – back to the beginning and your relationship with both your parents. You are the eldest of 5 children of Margaret and Nicholas and then stepsister to his children with his second wife Mary.
Your mother died when you were 10 years old, so I understand this might be more difficult. Margaret’s health had been poor for some time, it is suggested that this was in part due to the loss of her fortune by the failed investment in the South Sea Bubble. (Echoes the collapses in crypto currencies trading companies perhaps?)
Can you give me one word to describe your childhood relationship with your mother?
EC Mmmm – sounds a simple question yet …..anxious or disappointing? This is hard – or is it frustrating
LMW Can you choose one – what is the stronger emotion.
EC It is ambivalent actually – yes as it is a composite of conflicting emotions.
LMW Can you provide a memory that sums this up for us?
EC A sense of pointlessness or waste permeates through my memories. Going to her bedroom, wanting to converse, bringing her tea. Yet the curtains were drawn, compress over her eyes, hushed voice when I wanted to be bright. I felt her anxiety and wanted to alleviate her distress, and yet angry that she seemed to want to fade, resigned and unable to find any inner courage. It also meant that I had greater responsibility for my siblings, more of a companion to my father.
LMW Are there any places in your body where you feel this emotion?
EC In my chest and head – a tightening, a battle between my head and my heart. Wanting to break free yet conscious of my moral duty.
LMW Moral duty – as a young child?
EC Yes as a lifelong endeavour that has permeated my whole life and outlook
LMW This is interesting. Do you think your mother’s capitulation to ill health was a failure in her moral duty as a parent, as a Christian?
EC This is deeply uncomfortable.
LMW Let me take a less direct route. What impact do you think it had on your own relationship to your body and your passion for walking? Are you motivated by a moral duty to not be dominated by your body, a female body? Does the physical have to be suppressed?
EC A battle within perchance?
LMW In what way?
EC between my head and my heart, the body and the mind. I want my mind to be in control.
LMW At the expense of the body?
EC Oh dear ambivalence emerges as a headless creature from the primordial. I love the physicality of walking, the movement, the sheer strength I feel. When I walk along the coast, I can be free. The more I move, the more I lighten. The sea, the exertion, I never want to stop, I long to be seen as a wanderer, free, a nomad without fear or favor.
LMW Is this an act of rebellion against moral duty?
EC No – it is a moral duty to be active, to push oneself. Yet I am so free in that moment. I am a part of the environs; it is an interplay between myself and the land and what it enables me to become. Free. The vista of the coast, the sea – looking outward and to the horizon.
LMW I understand, yet I sense something more, a conflict. You used the word battle. Is there any element of punishing yourself, your body? Punishing yourself in lieu of your mother’s failure in her moral duty. I know your health has been poor, many a headache that has caused you great distress.
EC These are difficult questions, disturbing in fact. I cannot deny that I feel ambivalent. Yet I know that when walking I transcend the battle – the movement the exertion frees my mind. I think more cleanly with certitude. In my mind I converse with my most adored friends, I share my thoughts and impressions. I am aware of the irony – a parson’s daughter who longs to be mistaken for a vagabond. I am at home, no, more than that, I belong in nature along the south coast in particular. It is my sense of place completely.
LMW In your letters you often seem to long for company, a missionary zeal and an amused attitude to your less sturdy walking companions. I suspect that this time alone is your need for connection with yourself and by extension other people can be satisfied though your internal dialogue. This need to be free, from who you are – yet maintaining a link to the world and your female friends?
EC Sometimes I do, I want them to experience liberation, to know how it is to let go of the occupations of polite society. By the coast, the white cliffs, and water, the seascape, beauty in all weathers. I confess I am partial to storms and tempests. Women are so often depicted as being weak – yes as my mother. Deal in my lifetime was described as a most desolate and dangerous place, notable in reference to smugglers. Yet my sex has never been part of any consideration that has curtailed my ramblings. The presence of another amazon mitigates against the need for a male chaperone.
LMW Were you aware of how unusual this compulsion to walk was in your lifetime? You describe the confinement of a coach journey as unbearable.
EC I have this drive within me, whether this was indeed an aspect of my relationship with my mother – or a rebellion against weakness, within and imposed upon the female sex. All I can tell you is that I am unable to detach as it is part of me, essential to myself.
LMW Are you wanting to suppress you feelings by exhausting the body – let your mind roam – emotions and passions fly, sexual needs dissipated.
EC I am not going to indulge this line of questioning. It is my prerogative to veto such topics.
LMW Of course, entirely your choice. Can you give me a word to describe your childhood relationship with your father?
EC My father
LMW Your father – ah – I see such a look of warmth and affection on your face. Does any word come to mind?
EC Philia
LMW No hesitation – why?
EC It is a term coined in Ancient Greece to describe a relationship of equals, highly exalted, more so than romantic love, Eros. Naturally in this point of history it was viewed as being limited to the domain of men, and was, mmm, the parson’s daughter again, a virtuous love. Yet this is what we had, have, my sex is of no matter. Although his affection and concern are evident, I am his equal, student and teacher.
LMW You know that the Greek word associated with family relationships is Storge – encapsulating empathy and affection.
EC With my father it was more than familial bonds. Yet not devoid of empathy and affection certainly.
LMW Can you give me a specific example of a memory of Philia in terms the relationship with your father?
EC My dear – my entire relationship – it was through his action more than words. He saw me clearly as an individual without borders. We studied, there was always time. I was given the opportunity to learn French from a Huguenot refugee. I was instructed in ancient Greek and Latin. This total absorption was allowed and encouraged.
I was unaware of how unusual this was, for a female child to be afforded such access into such realms of academia. There was never any doubt that this world, these mental vistas, were my playground. By the time I understood, it was too late! I have this utter conviction that my mind, my ideas are as valid and equal to any male. It still does not occur to me that this is not the case.
LMW Your adoption of Samuel Johnson, your relationship with him seems to reflect this too – although perhaps not so all encompassing. Johnson pointed out that you were as skilled in the domestic sphere as in the world of intellectual and artistic ventures.
EC True – yet I maintain that the attention to the home, and my responsibility to my family and harmony of the hearth is a noble and moral endeavour. I see no conflict with erudition and learning.
LMW That is part of your paradox, perhaps it comes from observing you from the 21st century. I have to do a mental double take to remind myself you were born in 1717. Your whole demeanor is so modern, so unapologetic. I admire how you take up space, you are out in the world, striding along and alone. Conversely, matched with piety and acceptance of the woman’s role. Yet you are often seen as a precursor of the feminist movement and a key bluestocking member and advocate.
EC There are often expectations that are thrust upon us from a future sensibility that were not at all complicated for me in my lifetime.
LMW Very true. Yet I am curious about how these streams come together
EC Like the confluence of rivers (laughter). Water moves, if it is stagnant it is foul and dangerous.
LMW Continuing with the metaphor – your hidden depths, your passions, your relationships. Your intensity especially with regards to Catherine Talbot.
EC I see. Do you imagine another battle – with a moral dimension?
LMW – What is your experience? Future writers look at your poetry and letters, your tempestuous feelings, intense declarations of adoration, at times obsession. What lies beneath Eliza? Is this why you enjoy walking in storms?
EC Very clever – oh I am being pummeled by your questions. Yes. Currents my dear, deep, deep currents. I am, I am undone by this, and oh, you used the word moral, piety, decorum.
LMW Discrimination based on sexuality still. I wonder if you were catapulted into my present – can you imagine having a relationship with a woman that is intellectual, sexual and visible.
EC Such a prospect both captivates and alarms. Reflecting now I do believe the compulsion to ramble, the physical need was a means of connecting to this interiority. Yet, I do believe it is also an expression of finding space away from the crowd essential.
LMW Deflecting away from my question! I can tell you are not comfortable. Forgive me, yet I find this so fascinating, this happy deviance of real declarations of passion, locks of hair exchanged between you and Catherine. As I understand it this was a sign of intimacy and a declaration of a future together as a couple?
EC Correct
LMW There are some records of a man who was interested in marriage, yet this was never furthered. Similarly, you were reported to say the ideas of having a sweetheart was seen to as awful as one of the seven deadly sins?
EC Never say never my dear one. Yes, I do, articulate for want of a better word, in a most effusive style. I do feel strongly, I do feel I belong in the wilds, in the landscape. My nature is such.
LMW Walking is therefore a multifaceted aspect of who you are?
EC Utterly. More than – it is my nature.
LMW It seems to be visceral, a brilliant combination of intellectualism and passion combusting. I think in some respects you were “safer” to be a lone female walking than now, your class would also have been a form of protection from assault.
EC Yes – I am aware of this and my own privilege. My attire certainly marked my status.
LMW It seems to be curious that in spite of all the freedoms many women enjoy now, this has paradoxically made us less safe in public spaces. Walking unaccompanied over hills and dales, in the city, there is always an awareness of the threat. There are still very restrictive practices and laws that govern the females’ ability to be in public spaces without a chaperone or indeed requiring permission from family and the state.
EC I grieved to hear this – it would be unbearable for me on all levels. I wonder whether your freedoms are worth the cost?
LMW It saddens me that for all our gains the amount of trolling you would have received on social media – crude at the best. Do you have any desire to see and experience modern life? Even if for a long weekend?
EC Resolutely not.
LMW Do you think you could have only existed, been “you” in the 18th century?
EC I generally avoid hypotheticals. A futile journey, I exist in my time, and that is now gone. However, I modestly think that my presence needed to be as it was. I have no regrets. I lived fully and on my terms. For which I wish for everyone.
LMW I am going to push back here a bit. If you were not able to fully express your love, your sexual self, did you really live fully?
EC In my estimation yes.
LMW I see this paradox again – radical & original yet also constrained by and an active adherence to a restrictive society. A woman of your time.
EC That is the nature of my nature Lucy. Unfettered yet tied to my time and place. We all exist within our time.
LMW I suppose when I look back I can compare with all that has changed across the centuries. Yet – for anyone in the past – it was your now and present. One more push – can I not tempt you with anything from the 21st century. Big fat hint – travel, the environment? Coastal erosion along the South East Coast?
EC I shall capitulate on the hypotheticals once more. Who would have thought I could be so compliant in my old age!
LMW and EC laugh
I might be tempted by interrailing across Europe or walking in China – mandarin is such a fascinating language to add to my arsenal. The exponential increase in the population is quite extraordinary. The sheer number of human beings and the speed of communication – terrifying!. I have noted the rise of climate change and alarming public displays of rebellion. Mmmm yet, given the right circumstances and a band of renegade women, I can see myself – no I am not sure.
LMW Wild water swimming? Forest bathing? I can see you participating.
EC It does seem rather impolite – yet I confess to feeling a certain frisson, a gurgle of wildness rising. Perhaps at night with trusted coconspirators?
LMW May I join you – it sounds fabulous.
EC I cannot contemplate your absence.
LMW It has been a great pleasure, and thank you for your honesty.
EC Your impertinence was delightful!
LMW I am looking forward to hearing the comments and thoughts of our readers.
EC I too am curious.
LMW From your transcendent position is there something from your life that we can learn from?
EC Be more elemental – pare down, you seem to immerse yourself with a plethora of objects, constant hive of activity without seemingly achieving anything. Be more elemental and less apologetic.
LMW Thank you Elizabeth Carter
Thank you for reading
I would love to hear what you thought – are there any impressions you would like to share?
I have a few ideas –
· The sense of belonging – where is that for you? Are there any places that have real significance – where you feel most authentic?
· As Square Pegs – this may not be obvious – you – your physical being might be the place you feel most whole?
· Is there a point in history that calls to you? Or are you a futurist?
Next week from 8th July I will be in Deal, the birthplace and home of this amazing Dame.
It will be raw as it happens in real time and organic. Images, audio, maybe video for the first two days I am there and publish on Wednesday.
It is an immersion, pilgrimage, reflection of belonging to a place, how we do this if it all. I am excited as I don’t know what this will look like it as I have never been to Deal and never undertaken this type of project based on an inspirational Square Peg.
I am looking forward to seeing you there. Pack your bucket and spade – we are going to the seaside.
Lanser, Susan S. “Bluestocking Sapphism and the Economies of Desire.” Huntington Library Quarterly, Vol. 65, no. ½, 2002, pp. 257-275.
https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/person/mp00781/elizabeth-carter
I shall be the first to comment. It feels very exciting that this is out in the world. Thank you forvreafingband please lets chat 😃